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I don't like the new CGI dove sequence

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Feyhra

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 9:58 am

I don't like the new CGI dove sequence

I don't really much care for the new CGI dove shot. I don't mind a little CGI to fix certain shots because it wasn't intrusive, but that whole shot was constructed with CGI and it doesn't fit and looks like it's from a much cheaper movie.

I know there's a continuity problem with the original but I still much prefer it. I know isn't actually daylight shining on him just moments before he releases the dove, but it is suggestive of *some* kind of light and to see the dove fly away into it.. Well, it fits somehow with the theme of Batty's fall and his redemption..

Thats the thing, Blade Runner isn't a turd and I'm not sure it needs this much polishing. In some ways I get a better feeling from watching my old VHS rip of the Theatrical Cut than I do from my DVD of the Final Cut, and I still have very mixed feelings about that damn voiceover, and I DO like the unicorn which is sadly missing from it, but I am also one of those weirdos who likes the happy ending, and the original is so good for that..

Blade Runner is set in a deeply flawed universe, so i don't mind watching a flawed copy, if that makes any sense?
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Post Wed May 20, 2009 11:04 am

It's the flaws that make us human. :)

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Charles de Lauzirika

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 9:24 pm

That wasn't a CGI shot. It was a digital matte painting with other elements (such as rain, steam and the original dove) digitally composited into it.

Sorry you don't like it. But that's why the other versions of the film are included in the 4 and 5-disc sets.
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ridleynoir

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 11:09 pm

Though I seem to disagree with you most of the time Charles, I have to admit I have over time really liked the new dove scene. Even though the rotoscoping/matting around the moving bird is not perfect. The scene itself fits the movie 100 times better than the sheet metal pipes version.

The hard part it that it isn't something we are used to, and have ingrained into our memories. Compared to many of the other changes, it also isn't as subtle. I like how the frame is just about exactly the same, and elements of the original still are there including the brightening sky and smoke stacks. It may just take a few hundred more viewings before I can erase the memory of the original version. As a matter of fact I got to see the DC again recently on a large screen and the changed cuts seems a bit trite and dated, while the rest of the movie still seems pretty vital.

I also found it interesting to see how when you are viewing the movie with others, you can almost see it through their eyes, and have a different perspective of it. I am not sure if it is that I was just sensing their emotions and tensions and relating to them, or if I was just more self aware thus detaching me from how I usually connect with the movie while watching it.

I can only hope the FC will come close by again zo I can zee it in ze Zinema again ;)

Andy
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Charles de Lauzirika

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 12:47 am

ridleynoir wrote:Though I seem to disagree with you most of the time Charles, I have to admit I have over time really liked the new dove scene.


"Most of the time?" Wait, what else is there to disagree about?

Even though the rotoscoping/matting around the moving bird is not perfect. The scene itself fits the movie 100 times better than the sheet metal pipes version.


Glad you like it but I respectfully disagree that the roto work on the dove is noticeably "imperfect." I think Illusion Arts did a tremendous job on the shot. Every single shot was meticulously examined frame-by-frame, over and over. Seriously, ask anyone who worked on The Final Cut and they'll probably roll their eyes over how many times I insisted we scrutinize every single new or revised shot. But ultimately, The Final Cut was for Ridley. If it's your favorite version too, great. If not, you've still got the other four versions to choose from.

I can only hope the FC will come close by again zo I can zee it in ze Zinema again ;)


I'd love to see it in a theater again too. It really is a mesmerizing experience. I never get tired of watching it.
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ridleynoir

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 2:14 am

Charles de Lauzirika wrote:
ridleynoir wrote:Though I seem to disagree with you most of the time Charles, I have to admit I have over time really liked the new dove scene.


"Most of the time?" Wait, what else is there to disagree about?

Even though the rotoscoping/matting around the moving bird is not perfect. The scene itself fits the movie 100 times better than the sheet metal pipes version.


Glad you like it but I respectfully disagree that the roto work on the dove is noticeably "imperfect." I think Illusion Arts did a tremendous job on the shot. Every single shot was meticulously examined frame-by-frame, over and over. Seriously, ask anyone who worked on The Final Cut and they'll probably roll their eyes over how many times I insisted we scrutinize every single new or revised shot. But ultimately, The Final Cut was for Ridley. If it's your favorite version too, great. If not, you've still got the other four versions to choose from.


I never meant to say it was obvious, because I think you have to look at it real hard to notice it. Mostly the motion blur on the wings doesn't quite seem to blend 100%, and it kind of reminds me of a slow motion done without overcranking and then transferred to video. I almost wonder if the slow motion on it was done by splicing in more frames instead over overcranking from the start. I also think it may have been just the quality of the new background is so clear and the dove seems a little less clear. Was the the film stock used from a smaller camera perhaps?

As an amateur archivist of this movie myself, what you did with this set is amazing. I think people now days are so used to getting everything for nothing, they take for granted how much is on the set and how much work went into it. I also think we all sat down for a small meal like we are so used to getting with BR in the past and got instead a 50 course meal. If we don't spend the time to digest one course at a time we have a hard time enjoying it. If I had to sell off my BR collection, this is the last thing I would let go. It is concentrated BR goodness.

As far as disagreements, most of them go back to AFBR and the IMDB BR forum. Of course I didn't realize who you were at the time and thought you were just some troll pretending to have inside info on the DVD set before it came out :oops: :D

At the same time I think we agreed on a lot of stuff too. :)

Thank you,

Andy
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Charles de Lauzirika

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 2:56 am

ridleynoir wrote:I never meant to say it was obvious, because I think you have to look at it real hard to notice it. Mostly the motion blur on the wings doesn't quite seem to blend 100%, and it kind of reminds me of a slow motion done without overcranking and then transferred to video. I almost wonder if the slow motion on it was done by splicing in more frames instead over overcranking from the start. I also think it may have been just the quality of the new background is so clear and the dove seems a little less clear. Was the the film stock used from a smaller camera perhaps?


It's the exact same real dove from the Theatrical Cut, with the exact same step-framing that was done in 1982, scanned directly from the negative. Seriously, the dove is unchanged except for being digitally composited into the new matte painting and being color-timed to Ridley's tastes. If you watch the "All Our Variant Futures" featurette on Disc 5, David Dryer discusses creating a CG dove for this shot, but this was never done. It was just an early idea he was exploring.
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Post Thu May 21, 2009 3:02 am

Yes, but it differs in quality from the background, that is my point. The original scene also looked out of place because of the slow motion on it as well as the setting. The dove "Flickered" in the original as well. It just looks more unnatural in the new version. I never thought the Dove was CGI ever. I recognized it as the same dove.

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Charles de Lauzirika

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 4:07 am

I was just pointing out that nothing was different about the dove itself or the way it was filmed or the way it was optically slowed-down in post, since you were wondering about slow-motion. Also, the new steam and rain elements used in the new digital matte painting were step-framed to match the original dove.

I don't think it's necessary to convince every living soul that the new shot is perfect or even an improvement, but most of the reasons I've heard from those who don't like the shot really have no bearing on how the shot was actually created. It is certainly the most obvious VFX fix in the entire Final Cut though. Given that there are over a hundred picture enhancements or revisions that most people will never notice, I understand that the most obvious one would take some getting used to.
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Post Thu May 21, 2009 1:52 pm

It's alright Charles, it is NEAR perfect, but since for some reason I can still see it's imperfection, maybe I have a more discerning eye than you ;) :)

Actually all of us have very astute abilities to spot inconsistencies in things that we don't often understand. Like the same way we can spot a photoshopped photo in an email, or a humanoid robot that gives us the "uncanny Vally" creeps, or a hot girl at a nightclub that is actually a guy. :) Sometimes the when you look at something too many times you begin to miss the the subtleties that we haven't thought about.

Actually there is no reason to be defensive about it. I am nitpicking and the only way to make it perfect would have been to photograph the dove on location with the correct setting, camera and lighting. It is still far superior than any of the other matt shots in the movie from 1981-2. maybe it is its superiority to those shots that makes my spidey sense tingle.

Andy
Last edited by ridleynoir on Thu May 21, 2009 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Feyhra

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 2:24 pm

all i was really saying is a like the old dove sequence much better. can't really explain it clearly. it just seems futile to try to explain one's tastes too much. the old scene seems more 'right' somehow. it's good that folks are talking about it, however :)
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ridleynoir

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Post Thu May 21, 2009 2:31 pm

Even though the old scene did bother me less over time, It originally made my gut ache and even made me giggle in uncomfort by how out of place it was. The new scene is far superior, but it will take time for us to accept it because the old one is what is ingrained in our minds. Kind of like Jennifer Grey's nose job :)

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Post Sat May 23, 2009 3:42 pm

ridleynoir wrote:Kind of like Jennifer Grey's nose job :)



:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post Sat May 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Charles de Lauzirika wrote:I'd love to see it in a theater again too. It really is a mesmerizing experience. I never get tired of watching it.


You know what would be awesome? A showing of The Final Cut at Union Station, in the wing that was used for shooting the LAPD/Police 995 station sequences. I was at Union Station a couple of weeks ago for Train Day 2009, and there were bands playing there. The acoustics shouldn't be good at all in there, but they're actually very good. They set the stage up behind the ancient ticket counter, believe it or not.

Another venue that would be great would be the Million Dollar Theatre, which is now 100% fully functional again. I believe it now is equipped for digital projection. The Jules Verne Society is doing a showing there of "Some Like It Hot."

Yeah, I'm jonesing to see it again in a theatre too. It would be awesome. This is, after all, 2009...t-minus 10 years and counting...
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Post Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:36 am

I have to say I'm absolutely 110% in favor of and support the new dove FX shot in the FC. Not only are the FX completely impeccable, what I appreciate equally in the new version is the aesthetic restraint behind its envisioning: it's a very simple still shot, not some over-stylized dolly or crane shot, and it blends seamlessly and unobtrusively with the rest of the scene. I can feel the love and respect for BR in this new shot, not a "wow, look at me" throwaway-videogame sensibility so common in 21st-century sci-fi. IMO, it kicks the hell out of all other versions of this shot, and makes them look like the pre-vis inserts that they really were (before Scott and Deeley ran out of bling circa 1981). Hats off to the FC team on this one!
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