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Holden...muddying the waters?

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Masao

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:06 am

Holden...muddying the waters?

If Holden's part were to weigh in on the subject there would be even more confusion.

Doesn't holden say :"It is all over! They are just like us." and "old buddy" to Deckard??

This would leave us with more possiblities:

-Holden was acting with Deckard and knew he was a Replicant.

-The injured Holden was a Replicant with memory implants.

-Holden had worked with Deckard before without knowing Deckard was a Replicant.
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BR796164

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:59 am

You mean the hospital scene, right.

Yes, it's interesting, because it actually gives us a better insight into relationship between Holden and Deck, about which we otherwise don't have a clue from watching the movie.
Regardless of the quality of Jeter's Edge of Human, I think it nicely developes
theme of their relationship. It reveals that Holden actually dislikes Deckard, because he sees him as too emotionally engaged and weak Blade Runner.
Coincidentally, he and Deckard are dragged into game in which they suspect each other from being skinjobs.

Interesting conspirational points you have there... but maybe you are reading too much into Holden's line? It could just mean they are good old collegues. Sometimes things are simpler than they look. :wink:
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Masao

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 am

I think I just have read too much of PKD. :)
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Post Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:50 am

You can never read too much PKD. :wink:
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Post Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:45 pm

Re: Holden...muddying the waters?

Masao wrote:If Holden's part were to weigh in on the subject there would be even more confusion.

Doesn't holden say :"It is all over! They are just like us." and "old buddy" to Deckard??

This would leave us with more possiblities:

-Holden was acting with Deckard and knew he was a Replicant.

-The injured Holden was a Replicant with memory implants.

-Holden had worked with Deckard before without knowing Deckard was a Replicant.


There is another possibility: Holden knew Rick Deckard, but the Blade Runner visiting him is in actuality a replicant that replaced the original.
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THX1138

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Post Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:59 pm

Or, as explained in Blade Runner 2, Holden himself is also a replicant.
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Post Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:52 pm

I noticed from the first time i saw BR that Holden resembled Deckard enough to be a clue in itself to them being both replicants. Their voices also seemed eerily similar.
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Post Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:13 am

Let's not forget that the scene never made it into either version of the movie - for me, that disqualifies it from the 'Deck a Rep' debate.
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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:45 am

Let's not forget that the scene never made it into either version of the movie - for me, that disqualifies it from the 'Deck a Rep' debate.


But it could illuminate us about Scott's original intentions. And the way I see it, the Holden Hospital scene treats Deckard as being absolute human. There's no hinting going on. The fact that Holden says to Deckard, "They are just like us", says it all. He was surprised about how indistinguishable from humans they have become. That's why he was careless. He, Holden, a supreme Blade Runner, didn't see it coming. The replicants are getting too good. That's what put him "on the plug". He's excusing himself for it but at the same time he's warning Deckard about them.

Having said that, the scene is unnecessary. I'm still glad it didn't make it in either version.
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THX1138

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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:36 am

Leon Corporation wrote:But it could illuminate us about Scott's original intentions. And the way I see it, the Holden Hospital scene treats Deckard as being absolute human. There's no hinting going on. The fact that Holden says to Deckard, "They are just like us", says it all. He was surprised about how indistinguishable from humans they have become. That's why he was careless. He, Holden, a supreme Blade Runner, didn't see it coming. The replicants are getting too good. That's what put him "on the plug". He's excusing himself for it but at the same time he's warning Deckard about them.

Having said that, the scene is unnecessary. I'm still glad it didn't make it in either version.

In Future Noir he talks about this scene. When Deckard leaves the room, the camera would pull back revealing Bryant and Gaff lurking in the shadows of the room observing Deckard's and Holden's conversation, giving away the thought that Deckard is being followed. Another hint of this is in the end of the movie when Gaff throws Deckard his gun that he had dropped. He has been following him the whole time. Of course, this hospital scene was cut out, so I guess it's all still up for debate about Holden being a rep.
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Leon Corporation

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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:47 am

Do you also know the page in FN that talks about this?
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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:57 pm

Leon Corporation wrote:Do you also know the page in FN that talks about this?


Page 124: "Also during this scene in the February 23,1981 version of the BR script, the encapsulated Holden tells Deckard that the replicants have come back to Earth to find "God". A pullback was then to reveal Deckard and Holden being spied on by Bryant and Gaff on a monitor."

In regards to further elaborate on that Gaff has been following Deckard, page 198.
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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:44 pm

Well, this does not in any way hints at Holden. It's another "sign" that Gaff and Bryant are always in close proximity to Deckard. Clearly, throughout the film, Deckard is the person who's being watched.
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THX1138

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Post Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:38 pm

Kipple wrote:
Leon Corporation wrote:Do you also know the page in FN that talks about this?


Page 124: "Also during this scene in the February 23,1981 version of the BR script, the encapsulated Holden tells Deckard that the replicants have come back to Earth to find "God". A pullback was then to reveal Deckard and Holden being spied on by Bryant and Gaff on a monitor."

In regards to further elaborate on that Gaff has been following Deckard, page 198.


Lol. To some of us, Future Noir is like a bible, lol. I must have read Future Noir 4 times over, but I couldnt tell you the page numbers all the info appears on.
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Masao

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Post Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:03 am

Well. FN and all the other non related items are meaningless to me.

The film and the orginal novel are all that is pertinent. This includes any of the author's notes on the subject.

Using a half-witted sequel novel that controverts the original novel to explain a film based on the original novel is beyond any comprehension or good sense.

There are certain assumptions that are made about the whole situation:

1. Deckard is EITHER a Replicant OR is human.

We are assuming that the Deckard of the first scene is the Deckard whose eyes reflect later in the film. We ASSUME there is only one Deckard in the film. The correct answer to whether he is a replicant may be: 'both, yes and no'.

2. We also assume that Deckard has never had 'enhancements'

3.We also assume that replicant parts cannot be transplanted to humans. This includes memories.

This leads us to another idea. Was Rachael actually a Replicant? Could she have had memories EXTRACTED and eyes replaced? Could she have been in some debilitating accident and repaired? If memories can be implanted, isn't it possible to have other people sharing the memories of other real humans?? Maybe they can even remember it for you wholesale. Rekall Rekall Rekall?

Remember the first thing Tyrell offers Batty? "Do you want something enhanced?" This sounds like replacement parts. We have no idea of the level of replacement technology available for humans or what is routinely replaced or enhanced.

The whole eye issue may be a red herring. After all, if the reflections in the eyes are the indicator of a replicant, why not carry a small flashlight rather than a bulky VK machine??

This leads to whole piles of other questions, but that should pump new life into an old controversy.
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