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Holden...muddying the waters?

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Charles de Lauzirika

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Post Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:18 pm

Tryfan915 wrote:
Masao wrote:In this case; the first eye sets the point of view and establishes the holder of the vision -Holden.


Although after viewing Dangerous Days, the eye appears to belong to Leon.


There's also a similar close-up of an eye that has Leon's reflection in it, so the Big Eye's owner is still open for debate...however, I think it must be Holden since he's shown looking out the window over the Hades Landscape, whereas Leon hasn't entered the room yet. Unfortunately, that very brief alt. footage wasn't delivered to us in time to be included. However, if I recall correctly, the fisheye view of Leon (to have been seen in Holden's eye) is used in the Off World bootleg CD packaging.
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Post Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:53 am

That will have to be included on the 2019 edition, then, eh?
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Tryfan915

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Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:00 pm

Charles de Lauzirika wrote:
Tryfan915 wrote:
Masao wrote:In this case; the first eye sets the point of view and establishes the holder of the vision -Holden.


Although after viewing Dangerous Days, the eye appears to belong to Leon.


There's also a similar close-up of an eye that has Leon's reflection in it, so the Big Eye's owner is still open for debate...however, I think it must be Holden since he's shown looking out the window over the Hades Landscape, whereas Leon hasn't entered the room yet. Unfortunately, that very brief alt. footage wasn't delivered to us in time to be included. However, if I recall correctly, the fisheye view of Leon (to have been seen in Holden's eye) is used in the Off World bootleg CD packaging.


So the new release really is only scrathcing the surface...

If only we could see what you have seen with your eyes. :wink:
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Masao

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Post Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:45 pm

Tryfan915 wrote:So the new release really is only scrathcing the surface...

If only we could see what you have seen with your eyes. :wink:


It appears so.
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Gene Ettix

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Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:38 pm

I've always liked the ambiguity of the Big Eye, myself. I'd love to see all the footage Charles has seen, but I wouldn't want it in the Final Cut... or final/Final Cut. When I first read "Future Noir", I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Ridley Scott's intention was exactly how I always percieved it when watching the movie. (To be found in Paul Sammon's interview w/ Ridley Scott near the end of the book):

Initially, the Eye was supposed to be Holden's but Ridley thought that was too literal. He even agrees with Sammon that it could be Tyrell.

I, personally enjoy not knowing who/what the eye belongs to. It can be seen (pun intended) as only a metaphor that we are constantly under observation. Scott said it was an Orwellian idea... the eye of Big Brother. It's supposed to convey the sense of paranoia that pervades throughout the movie. I also like Sammon's comment that, "instead of the audience watching the film, the film is watching the audience".

Maybe, the Eye is only to remind us to take a close look at ourselves... are we sheep/followers, robots/Replicants, Human/in-humane?

And last, but not least, is my own interpretation that the Eye is mine/yours... the viewer, as you watch the film.
Maybe we are being watched AS WE WATCH... Now THAT'S paranoia! 8-[ :lol:
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Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:16 pm

there's no way the eye could belong to Leon or Holden... in the eye is reflected the horizon of Hades, due to the positions of the windows in the room that the test was given in, up high close to the cieling, it is impossible to belong to one of them, in order to see the horizon instead of just sky they would need to be on level with the windows... i prefer Ridley Scott's explenation during his comentaries on the Final Cut stating what the previous poster stated about it being the Eye of Big Brother, more a metaphore, but quite possibly Tyrell himself, if you need something literal, as he has those huge picture windows in his office and bedroom...
Gosh, you really got some nice toys here...
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Gene Ettix

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Post Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:42 am

Araym wrote:i prefer Ridley Scott's explenation during his comentaries on the Final Cut stating what the previous poster stated about it being the Eye of Big Brother, more a metaphore, but quite possibly Tyrell himself, if you need something literal, as he has those huge picture windows in his office and bedroom...


Sir Ridley also said in Sammon's interview, "Tyrell, in fact, had he lived, would certainly have been Big Brother."
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Post Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:26 am

I think it was in the extras in the DVD set that I heard something stating that the Eldon Tyrell seen in the film is in fact also a Replicant, and that the real Eldon Tyrell was dead and entombed on a higher level of the Tyrell corporation building.

Rather fitting, if you think about it, Tyrell is basically the king of the Tyrell corporation and Replicant life. AS we all know, an Egyptian pyramid is a royal tomb. Subtle symbolism hinting that Tyrell is already dead?

If so, that again changes the dynamics of Roy's murder of his "father".

I wonder how that in turn ties in with Abdul Ben Hassan "the Egyptian" and his synthetic snakes?
Deckard

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Gene Ettix

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Post Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Deckard wrote:I think it was in the extras in the DVD set that I heard something stating that the Eldon Tyrell seen in the film is in fact also a Replicant, and that the real Eldon Tyrell was dead and entombed on a higher level of the Tyrell corporation building.


True. We never get to see them but,... A prosthetic Tyrell-head with wires and smoke coming out was to be used when Batty crushes it. And, early scripts had Sebastian taking Roy to an upper level after Tyrell's murder, only to find the real Tyrell in frozen,cryogenic suspension.

Deckard wrote:Rather fitting, if you think about it, Tyrell is basically the king of the Tyrell corporation and Replicant life. AS we all know, an Egyptian pyramid is a royal tomb. Subtle symbolism hinting that Tyrell is already dead?

If so, that again changes the dynamics of Roy's murder of his "father".

I wonder how that in turn ties in with Abdul Ben Hassan "the Egyptian" and his synthetic snakes?


Egyptians were obsessed with eternal life - Or death, depending on how you want to look at it. Just one more motif to add to BR... EGYPT.
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Post Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:11 pm

The only way to catch a replicant is to send in a replicant.....
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Post Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:21 pm

Charles de Lauzirika wrote:
Tryfan915 wrote:
Masao wrote:In this case; the first eye sets the point of view and establishes the holder of the vision -Holden.


Although after viewing Dangerous Days, the eye appears to belong to Leon.


There's also a similar close-up of an eye that has Leon's reflection in it, so the Big Eye's owner is still open for debate...however, I think it must be Holden since he's shown looking out the window over the Hades Landscape, whereas Leon hasn't entered the room yet. Unfortunately, that very brief alt. footage wasn't delivered to us in time to be included. However, if I recall correctly, the fisheye view of Leon (to have been seen in Holden's eye) is used in the Off World bootleg CD packaging.


I would say it's Holden's. I think for it to be anyone elses really does fragment the pace of the scene. We see Holden looking out, we see the close ups on the buildings are all relevant to the Holden scene, it seems a reflection of us coming in to the scene, to have him looking out.

That said, I do agree the larger symbolic imagery of the eye is clearly nothing to do with Holden but a larger concept, but narratively, Holden's eye is the only one that carries any sequential sense. Otherwise it just seems too arbitrary in its inclusion.
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Deckard

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Post Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:24 am

If, for arguments sake, it belongs to Holden, we need to ask ourselves why would Ridley have made the very symbolic eye in the very opening of the film that of Holden's?

The eye symbolism is repeated over and over again. What makes Holden special to the point that all the insight and all that is learned in the course of the film is symbolized by Holden's eye?

We need to dig deeper into his character, his motivation, his relationship to Deckard, and determine if he was also a replicant.

If he was a replicant, perhaps he was having an "eye-opening" experience similar to Roy's at the end of the film.

Thoughts?
Deckard

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