BladeZone's Off World Forums

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:20 am**

Okay people - we have discussed this before, but bare with me.

I'm having difficulty clarifying this concept of 'memory implants' that Tyrell discusses with Deckard at the beginning of the movie.

My understanding is that Tyrell is experimenting with false memories on Rachael but the current model of Nexus 6 Reps (Roy, Leon et al) don't have these false memories and become erratic because they have no 'cushion' for the emotions that they have developed in their (relatively short) lifetime.

Tyrell is aware of this problem which is why he imposed a 4-year lifespan on the nexus-6 reps before they start having these problems dealing with their emotions. If the 'Rachael' experiment is successful, in other words the false memories do indeed help Reps cope with emotion, then the 4-year life-span can be lifted and a new phase of nexus (7?) reps can go into production with a longer life-span and a more stable personality.

Now, have I just imagined all of that or does anyone else share the same undestanding?

Note to THX1138 - you may pass if you wish

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:49 am**

It is my intention to present to the forum my ideas on this subject. I will provide you the facts as we know them based on the varying versions of the film as well as the book DADoES. For all intents and puposes, however, most of my supporting materials will be from the Domestic and Director's Cut versions of the film. So, first off, I'll post a definition (as it pertains to Blade Runner) and supporting material to back it, then I'll continue with my mini-dissertation on another reply.

Well then, let's start with a definition so that we are all on the same page.

Definition: Brain Implant

Perhaps more accurately termed memory implants, these are a set of virtual reality scenarios made to create a past in Replicants.

Any modifications needed for this definition?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:20 am**

DADoES

I bring up the book DADoES because it is the primal source of the movie Blade Runner, much was lifted from the story and transferred to the film. And there are alot of elements that weren't. But, I believe that in this case, of the brain implants, it remained true and remained in the story-line of the movie.

In DADoES, the Nexus-6 was the new model on the market put out by the Rosen Association (in the movie re-named the Tyrell Corporation). Here's an excert from the book:

"...the Nexus-6 did have two trillion constituents plus a choice within a range of ten million possible combinations of cerebral activity. In .45 of a second an android equipped with such a brain structure could assume any one of fourteen basic reaction-postures."

That excert tells us that these androids are fast in their processing skills.

In the book, as in the movie, Deckard went to the Rosen Association to test out the Nexus-6 android, to see if the current test still works on this model. Here is an excert after the test result:

"Thanks, Miss Rosen," he said,
and gathered together the equipment again; he had concluded his retesting. "That's all."
"You're leaving?" Rachael asked.
"Yes," he said. "I'm satisfied."
Cautiously, Rachael said, "What about the other nine subjects?"
"The scale has been adequate in your case," he answered. "I can extrapolate from that; it's clearly still effective." To Eldon Rosen, who slumped morosely by the door of the room, he said, "Does she know?" Sometimes they didn't; false memories had been tried various times, generally in the mistaken idea that through them reactions to testing would be altered.
Eldon Rosen said, "No. We programmed her completely. But I think toward the end she suspected." To the girl he said, "You guessed when he asked for one more try."
Pale, Rachael nodded fixedly. "

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:53 am**

The Movie

Moving on to the movie. We are first introduced to the concept of brain implants when Deckard meets with Rachael and Eldon Tyrell.

Eldon Tyrell explains why they are used in the Nexus 6 model to Deckard:

"If we gift them with a past ... we create a cushion or pillow for their emotions and consequently we can control them better."

Later in the movie when Rachael meets Deckard at his apartment she try's to prove to him that she is not a replicant. Deckard finally reveals to her:

"Implants. They are not your memories, they belong to Tyrell's sixteen year old niece." 1

"Implants! Those aren't your memories. They're somebody else's. They're Tyrell's niece's." 2

Later, from same version, as Deckard is getting a glass for Rachael:

"Deckard (voice-over): Tyrell really did a job on Rachael. Right down

to a snapshot of a mother she never had, a daughter she never was.

Replicants weren't supposed to have feelings...Leon's pictures had to be

as phony as Rachael's. I didn't know why a replicant would collect

photos. Maybe they were like Rachael. They needed memories."

This excert not only confirms that memory implants were used in the Nexus-6, but also, at least in Deckard's mind, resolves that the Replicants "desire" memories enough that they start creating their own, in addition to their programmed ones. As to why such a 'being' would want to have "evidence" of a memory is open to speculation (and a subject for another topic!).

The idea of photos fascinated Deckard. (Again...why? Open to much speculation...and good foder for thought and further discussion) He would make mental note and question, after dicovering photos in Leon's hotel why Leon would have photographs in the Domestic Cut version:

"Deckard (voice-over): ...And family photos? Replicants didn't have
families either."

We are later, in both versions of the film, re-introduced to this concept when Bryant speaks to Deckard after he retires Zhora:

"Bryant: There's four. That-- That skin job that you V-K'd at the

Tyrell Corporation, Rachael. Disappeared. Vanished. Didn't even know

she was a replicant. Something to do with a brain implant says Tyrell."

So...with the material I presented above, it only makes sense to me that the Nexus-6 have memory implants. It is a technology that is more probable over the other technologies involved with creating such a being.

I look forward to reading other folks views on this!

Cheers!

1 Screenplay February 23, 1981

2 From the movie.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:45 am**

Deckard BR26354 wrote:Note to THX1138 - you may pass if you wish

I will. I'll take the other Deckard Drinking questions.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:39 am**

This excert not only confirms that memory implants were used in the Nexus-6, but also, at least in Deckard's mind, resolves that the Replicants "desire" memories enough that they start creating their own, in addition to their programmed ones.

I'm not convinced that it does - and even if it shows the book was consistent, the movie is a separate entity based on the book.

A more structured reply will follow later.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:31 am**

Director's cut of the movie:

(Rachael leaves the room)

Deckard: "She's a Replicant, isn't she?"
Tyrell: "I'm impressed. How many questions does it usually take to spot one?"
Deckard: "I don't get it, Tyrell."
Tyrell: "How many questions?"
Deckard: "Twenty, thirty, cross-referenced."
Tyrell: "It took more than a hundred for Rachael, didn't it?"
Deckard: "She doesn't know?"
Tyrell: "She's beginning to suspect, I think."
Deckard: "Suspect! How can it not know what it is?"

So do all nexus-6 replicants start life thinking they are human? How did Roy and Co find out they weren't human? Wouldn't it be a huge risk to let a replicant believe they were human? If it is known they are emotionally unstable, wouldn't it be better to condition them to accept their replicant status rather than them find out by accident?

Tyrell: "Commerce is our goal here at Tyrell. 'More human than human' is our motto."
Tyrell: "Rachael is an experiment. Nothing more."

Are all nexus-6 reps 'experiments' then? If not, what makes Rachael different?

Tyrell: "We began to recognize in them a strange obsession."

Who? nexus-5 reps? nexus-6 reps?

Tyrell: "After all, they are emotionally inexperienced with only a few years in which to store up the experiences which you and I take for granted."

Is Tyrell talking about the nexus-6, with a 4-year life-span?

Tyrell: "If we gift them with a past, we create a cushion or a pillow for their emotions and consequently we can control them better."

Is this what the 'Rachael' experiment shows?

Deckard: "Memories. You're talking about memories!"

Yes, we know Rachael has implanted memories because Deckard read them in her file - why didn't he know about the other replicants 'implanted' memories? In the voice-over version of the movie, why did Deckard assume Leon was like Rachael? Couldn't he just check Leon's file like he did Rachaels and see for himself?

For me this entire discussion revolves around the question: What is 'experimental' about Rachael?

The impression that I get from the conversation between Deckard and Tyrell is that Rachael is nexus-6 PLUS - the extra feature being 'implanted memories'. Therefore, your run-of-the-mill nexus-6 replicants such as Roy and Leon may have developed a desire to hold onto their memories, but DO NOT have an implanted past like Rachael.

I think we can say that at some point implanted memories are featured in the development of replicants. But I think Tyrell is expressing an intention for future replicants not the current - therefore, I don't think you can categorically say that Roy and the other nexus-6 replicants (excepting Rachael) definitely had implanted memories.

Another marvellous piece of Blade Runner ambiguity - it's either very clever or just lazy.

BTW, I know many of you think we over-do the analysis on Blade Runner and I'm as guilty as anyone for doing so - but I think it's because there are so many holes left undefined that the temptation is just too great not to fill them.

If Blade Runner had taken off in the same way as Star Wars or Star Trek then the writers would have gone back and filled in the gaps for us. But the reality is that they did just enough to get the film to the screen and unfortunately that leaves a very sketchy 'universe' for us to play in. I think that if we want more of the same, then we should speculate about the 'blanks' and perhaps in doing so, provide a more rounded 'unverse' to build future stories from.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:06 am**

If the movie maintains a consistency with the book in respect of implants then I think the dialogue I outlined above is a very distorted version of consistency.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:18 pm**

So do all nexus-6 replicants start life thinking they are human?
That is not made known to us in the movie. My presumption is that they don't know.

How did Roy and Co find out they weren't human?
Again...not explained in movie. My presumption is that over time, certainly within 2 years, the higher intellectually ranked Replicants, such as Roy, would figure things out. They were "slaves" afterall. And what makes "them" so different from the others on Mars? The difference can be a shock as we saw displayed in Rachaels reactions. She had no one to console her (so it appears to us-assuming in her mind...who could she trust to get to the truth? Certainly no onther Tyrell associate.), Eldon Tyrell wouldn't see her. She only had Deckard, for it is he who exposed her. As far as Roy and Co., they only had each other, which says alot as far as the psychology of "group dynamics ". Roy, with the help of others presumably, found out all they could about "Replicants". Maybe not too difficult if one keeps their ears and eyes open. And what of "Advertisements"...were they not advertised on Mars, and only on Earth? This is not known to the movie-goer.

Wouldn't it be a huge risk to let a replicant believe they were human?
I believe it would be a risk in them believing they were a Replicant. Consider their emotional state. Alot more thought needs to go into the psychological make-up of these beings. But then I'm no expert...(and this is a movie full of flaws and unexplained sciences)

...wouldn't it be better to condition them to accept their replicant status rather than them find out by accident?
Yes. Good point.

Are all nexus-6 reps 'experiments' then? If not, what makes Rachael different?
Nexus-6's are not experiments. Tyrell, as with any good business person, look for improvements in their products. Rachael is different because she hasn't an expiration date (As is revealed in Domestic Cut via voice-over.).

Quote:
Tyrell: "We began to recognize in them a strange obsession."
It should be read and interrpreted as: "We began to recognize in them..." the next words said as a commentary note/observation for, to Tyrell, it is a strange obsession for Replicants to form/create their own emotional responses in their everyday lives.

Is Tyrell talking about the nexus-6, with a 4-year life-span?
Yes.

What is 'experimental' about Rachael"?

Bloody good question! My opinion on that matter is that, as I mentioned before, she hasn't an expiration date. Through her everyday interactions with the staff of Tyrell Corporation and their customers (also...she didn't seem too concerned over taking the VK with Deckard when Eldon Tyrell suggested it.) they can monitor her reactions, behaviors, and reponses. Watch her "grow"...intellectually and emotionally.

Cheers!

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:55 am**

I have always made the assumption that because Deckard was amazed that Racheal did not know who she was that most if not all Replicants before her knew that they were. That seems the most logical to me.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:03 am**

ridleynoir wrote:I have always made the assumption that because Deckard was amazed that Racheal did not know who she was that most if not all Replicants before her knew that they were. That seems the most logical to me.

That thought crossed my mind as well. But then I concluded that that may be one of the new features of the Nexus 6. After all, the Tyrell Corporation strives for their Replicants being "more human than human". Thus, the Replicants "not knowing" would be more believable.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:48 am**

Bryant ?Never knew she was a replicant. Something about a brain implant?.

Deckard ?How can it not know what it is??
Tyrel ?Rachael is an experiment, nothing more?

These pieces of dialog, to me, suggest that a replicant not being aware that it is a replicant is not only rare, but probably unique to Rachael.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:11 pm**

bousley wrote:These pieces of dialog, to me, suggest that a replicant not being aware that it is a replicant is not only rare, but probably unique to Rachael.

I'm with bousley on this one - if the 'expermental' aspect of Rachel was the removal of the 4-year lifespan then I think Tyrell would have elaborated on that rather than 'implanted memories'. After all, the assumption is that Reps before nexus-6 also do not have a 4-year lifespan.

So, I think the 'experiment' is to gauge how close they (Tyrell Corp.) are to creating a 'perfect being', indistinguishable from real humans, by seeing if a Nexus-6 can be 'made' to actually believe it is human by giving it false 'human childhood' memories.

What really troubles me about the idea that the nexus-6 reps already have implanted memories of a 'false past' is the possibility that Roy's monologue about 'c-beams' could be an implanted memory! That would be shame.

So, perhaps the implants in the run-of-the-mill nexus-6 reps are purely for training purposes - give a military commander training in combat strategy via implants - reminiscent of the movie The Matrix, where knowledge is uploaded directly to the brain.

Which leads me to believe that Roy and Co. knew from the beginning that they were not human and had to accept it. After all, they have to be controlled in some way and if they thought they were human, surely they would rebel against restrictive controls almost straight away.

Okay, to sum up then, this is what I'm comfortable with:

All nexus-6 have some sort of brain impant
Run-of-the-mill nexus-6 do have implanted memories, but they are purely used as a basis for task-related experience
Rachel is different because they use implants to give her a false 'human' past and therefore convince her that she is human - they can control her better that way

Finally, I know this is all speculation, based on assumptions and really has very little to do with the original intentions of PKD or the script-writers - BUT, I see it as an intellectual challenge to fill the plot-holes and enjoy the process of exploring the possibilities of this 'fictional' universe.

('Get a life!', I hear you cry

)

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:21 pm**

Deckard BR26354 wrote:
I'm with bousley on this one - if the 'expermental' aspect of Rachel was the removal of the 4-year lifespan then I think Tyrell would have elaborated on that rather than 'implanted memories'. After all, the assumption is that Reps before nexus-6 also do not have a 4-year lifespan.

I think you and Bousley have 'nutshelled' it here and it tallys with the instinctive understanding of the storyline i've always had. I imagined that the built in obsolescence was the initial reaction from Tyrell Corporation to the problem of renegade replicants but it soon proved to be insufficient and so the next stage was an implanted, fabricated 'past'.

Deckard BR26354 wrote:So, I think the 'experiment' is to gauge how close they (Tyrell Corp.) are to creating a 'perfect being', indistinguishable from real humans, by seeing if a Nexus-6 can be 'made' to actually believe it is human by giving it false 'human childhood' memories.

Exactly. To contol them better they remove the replicants knowledge of their own origins. The only reason that any replicants prior to Rachel needed to be VK-ed was not because they were convinced themselves that they were human (they had merely 'developed' basic human emotions) but because they were actively trying to outwit the interrogater and avoid capture.

Deckard BR26354 wrote:What really troubles me about the idea that the nexus-6 reps already have implanted memories of a 'false past' is the possibility that Roy's monologue about 'c-beams' could be an implanted memory! That would be shame.

Well Roys recollection of space battles (he is a combat model after all) and the Tannhauser gate and Leons photos of Roy and Zhora hanging out at 1187 always struck me as recently (ie within the last 4 years) aquired memories and actual experiences. Rachels recollections and her photo explicitly describe a past that we know she couldn't have experienced because she didn't have a childhood. Also, when Tyrell explains to Deckard about the new memory implants he keeps referring to 'them', gifting 'them' a past. I dont think we are meant to assume that he means Roy, Leon, Zhora and Pris. He could be talking about all future Replicants in general

Deckard BR26354 wrote:So, perhaps the implants in the run-of-the-mill nexus-6 reps are purely for training purposes - give a military commander training in combat strategy via implants - reminiscent of the movie The Matrix, where knowledge is uploaded directly to the brain.

I agree. I'm not sure they have any 'memory' implants to be honest. Merely an 'operating system' with a few 'apps' to enable them to carry out their designated tasks. The only memories they ever have are accumulated over the four years

Deckard BR26354 wrote:Which leads me to believe that Roy and Co. knew from the beginning that they were not human and had to accept it. After all, they have to be controlled in some way and if they thought they were human, surely they would rebel against restrictive controls almost straight away.

Well we are told that they were created without any emotional responses. So we can assume that the knowledge that they were laboratory creations didn't cause them any problems until they started to 'malfunction'. It helps to think of them as human clones with certain 'functions' (ie emotions) 'software blocked' We are also told quite emphatically that Rachels ignorance about her replicant status is new and unique

Deckard BR26354 wrote:Okay, to sum up then, this is what I'm comfortable with:

All nexus-6 have some sort of brain impant
Run-of-the-mill nexus-6 do have implanted memories, but they are purely used as a basis for task-related experience
Rachel is different because they use implants to give her a false 'human' past and therefore convince her that she is human - they can control her better that way

Finally, I know this is all speculation, based on assumptions and really has very little to do with the original intentions of PKD or the script-writers - BUT, I see it as an intellectual challenge to fill the plot-holes and enjoy the process of exploring the possibilities of this 'fictional' universe.

('Get a life!', I hear you cry )

I think this kind of discussion is great and not really speculation. We are dealing with story issues that have to be there for the story to work. I think the BR script has more complexity and subtlety than it is given credit for. Sure, theres the occassional hole or continuity glitch but storywise i think theres a distinction to be made between subtlety and ambiguity or vagueness.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:36 pm**

precinct wrote:Well we are told that they were created without any emotional responses. So we can assume that the knowledge that they were laboratory creations didn't cause them any problems until they started to 'malfunction'. It helps to think of them as human clones with certain 'functions' (ie emotions) 'software blocked'

That's a very good point! Roy and Co were more concerned about their short-life span not whether they were human or not!

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Brain Implants

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